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Fort Meade34 Bartow10

Wait this page has a text to talk feature must have missed it... But it's not a bad plan Nu.

Phac, your familiar with the FHSAA. How much man power would that involve?
 
Hmmm...never thought the word "all-stars" would create so much debate. Phac,no offense taken or meant...enjoying all the responses. Very good points by everyone. You r correct about it being about the kids...unfortunately, some "adults" can't seem to get it. I personally enjoyed watching "our" kids playing the all stars...some of the best games I've seen. I don't think the kids cared who they were playing...they just wanted to win. Sometimes their horses where bigger,faster than ours...that's just life. I've also seen the side of the not so good privates get pummeled by halftime...sad. Don't get me wrong,I got great satisfaction when they beat the BP,CCC,AHD,GLADES DAY...just because they had to to get where they wanted to go...state.
 
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I think we see this matter the same way, FMMG...I'm a problem solver, by nature, that's all...
 
Crabby...do you want every team investigated? Or just those who beat public schools with populations under 600? (I think you see where I am going...again)
 
It's one thing to ask for an investigation or even demand an investigation; however, it's another to get the result you want. He said, she said stuff wont fly and even when there is rock solid evidence against a team or player caught recruiting it's still another can of worms to get that team in trouble.

Tampa Catholic has been investigated many times, formally, over the years- and nothing has resulted from it. The most blatant example would be Nate Craig going from Pasco High School to Tampa Catholic Some feel that it was a political game with TC as their former head coach Bob Henriquez was also a powerful congressman for Florida while coaching at Tampa Catholic.

I also think Lakeland Christian was investigated and nothing came from it. Admiral Farragut Academy was also looked at when the St. Petersburg High team lost their QB to AFA.

I know a few people in Ft. Meade and have the utmost respect for the Fighting Miner program- I've seen both sides of the argument from both the small rural side and private school side. Both sides are passoniate.

I'm not necessarily in favor of an all private classification as we pretty much have that now in 2A/3A. Some private schools are legitimately struggling financially and with enrollment numbers- often they go hand and hand.

Then you have teams that win State Championships like JaxTCA/American Heritage or heck even Regional Championships every year like CCC - all with less than 600 enrollment, consistently beating bigger public schools and when 1 D-1 athlete graduates, 2 more transfer in. I think when people talk about private school recruiting, those are the teams people are talking about. But, getting those teams in trouble is even tougher than getting TC in trouble.
 
once again, SPCJessica2004 provides the voice of reason...mind you, it's the same message that Phac Nam has been driving at...but that's neither here nor there, I suppose...
 
SPCJessica2004, don't you agree that a school's winning record is not reason enough to drive an issue? Just because a team wins does not mean they are playing by different rules from everyone else.
 
Mr. phac Nam
I agree with all you and ms darling Jessica states. The rest of some of these confused tenants are making this thread more confused than my moma stirring a soup sandwich
 
Phac,

Winning % is a touchy subject. In general, what I've seen is that schools will have an incredible class or two (Freshmen and Sophomore). They'll take their lumps and then when they're Juniors and Seniors, they go 9-1 or 10-0 and make a deep run into the playoffs for one or two seasons, then it's back to 4-6 until the next cycle begins. I think this effects private schools as much as public schools.

In general- parents(Who are typically the biggest complainers) of teams that lose to that now 10-0 or 9-1 team only see that team when they're Seniors and didn't see them get their tail kicked their Freshmen year, so they assume those kids must of been recruited since it's such a strong buzzword with a negative connotation to it...then we end up reading about it on message board posts and twitter :)

Very few programs consistently finish a regular season .500 or higher every year over a 15 or 20 year span. Obviously, I'm a Tampa/St. Pete girl. Going back 20 years (1996) the only school I know of that has not finished below .500 in a regular season is CCC there may be one or two others; however, there's nearly 100 high schools in the are that play or have played HS football during that time period.. I have no doubt it's very similar in a lot of other areas in the state as well.

But, it's really the ebb and flow of high school football. Every team goes through up times and down times; however, I've personally found that more times than not- the teams that are consistently good and that stay good have a stable administration and coaching staff.
 
This tenant does see the big picture. We know that success drives kids to the school. I have always stood on the side of; yes they probably pull a few strings to get these kids in and there really is nothing we can do to change that. If that's what you feel you have to do to win then more power to you. It's a good way to teach our kids that you my not win them all but hey you did the best with what you had and that's what matters. At the end of the day for 99% of these kids high school football are just life lessons.
 
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Then you have teams that win State Championships like JaxTCA/American Heritage ... with less than 600 enrollment, consistently beating bigger public schools and (then) when 1 D-1 athlete graduates, 2 more transfer in. I think when people talk about private school recruiting, those are the teams people are talking about. But, getting those teams in trouble is even tougher than getting (Tampa Catholic) in trouble.
Violations of rules of conduct are ordinarily very difficult to prove because 99.99 percent of the time impropriety occurs behind closed doors. That's principally why those involved with certain programs feel confident to do whatever they feel is necessary to stack the deck.

Your phrase "trying to get those teams in trouble" would probably be more accurately stated as "trying to bring those violators to justice." Historically, most red-blooded American people firmly believe in bringing rule/law breakers to to their knees. It's simply our American way of life and hopefully this never changes.

Each year it gets harder and harder for many of us to abide the going-ons at certain high school programs. Cheating in football, which at one time was troublesome only at the college level, is not only in vogue at certain high-profile HS's, it has essentially come to be expected if a school "truly" wants to win (i.e., the old "everybody does it" rationale).

You're not only a 3A fan, you're a 3-A expert. Who better than you knows what caliber of personnel it will take this year to win the 3A title in FL? Any one with even half a prayer has to be loaded with prospective D-1 talent. Many of your updates have emphasized this point.

Just for sh--ts and giggles, go anywhere (e.g., mall, movie theater, concert venue, etc) and screen the first 600 teenagers to find out how many bona fide D-1 college football prospects you can come up with. What's your guess as to how many you'd usually find? Let's make it even more interesting - for $1,000,000.00 in cash - guess how many you'd find?

On average, you'd find none. It would be fairly uncommon to find one. You're chances of walking outside after the screening and getting struck by lightning would be much higher than finding two.

Yet all of the schools you've tabbed as favorites to show up in Orlando and win it all in 3-A have D-1 prospects in numbers. This as a given, what REALISTICALLY are the chances that there is no manipulation taking place?

Is this a new phenomenon? Hardly. In the mid 90's a private academy from the Tallahassee area would routinely show up at the 1-A title game with 4 or 5 eventual D-1 signees on their roster. What are the chances of that happening if nothing irregular was occuring?

Just a few years ago a State title in FL was vacated because both public school finalists were found guilty of cheating. If there was justice in FL high school football, both programs should have been given the death penalty. Guilty individuals should have received lifetime bans from the FHSAA, but no such actions ever took place.

So what's the bottom line? How can Nu'Trelle or any other red-blooded American stay interested in a game that has essentially become out-of-control? There's a chance - admittedly a small one - that somewhere, somehow, right-minded people will step up to the plate, say enough is enough, and demand that we rid the game of manipulators and go back to rewarding only those people who respect and honor the rules of sportsmanship and fair play.

Believe it or not, Jessica, before all the "improvements" were made, that's the way things used to be.
 
Neut, you are exactly correct. All these kids are seeing their coaches and admin get away with something that everyone knows is wrong, what's that teaching them? That it's ok to bend, skirt or break the rules? What are we teaching them?
 
Phac,

Winning % is a touchy subject. In general, what I've seen is that schools will have an incredible class or two (Freshmen and Sophomore). They'll take their lumps and then when they're Juniors and Seniors, they go 9-1 or 10-0 and make a deep run into the playoffs for one or two seasons, then it's back to 4-6 until the next cycle begins. I think this effects private schools as much as public schools.

In general- parents(Who are typically the biggest complainers) of teams that lose to that now 10-0 or 9-1 team only see that team when they're Seniors and didn't see them get their tail kicked their Freshmen year, so they assume those kids must of been recruited since it's such a strong buzzword with a negative connotation to it...then we end up reading about it on message board posts and twitter :)

Very few programs consistently finish a regular season .500 or higher every year over a 15 or 20 year span. Obviously, I'm a Tampa/St. Pete girl. Going back 20 years (1996) the only school I know of that has not finished below .500 in a regular season is CCC there may be one or two others; however, there's nearly 100 high schools in the are that play or have played HS football during that time period.. I have no doubt it's very similar in a lot of other areas in the state as well.

But, it's really the ebb and flow of high school football. Every team goes through up times and down times; however, I've personally found that more times than not- the teams that are consistently good and that stay good have a stable administration and coaching staff.

good grief, that is spot on, ma'am...you must have a view from inside some of those ivory covered walls!
 
Neutral,

Believe it or not, I agree 100% with what you're saying. What I don't agree with is those saying this happens at every private school. For every American Heritage or JaxTCA or CCC..there's 3-4 private schools trying to figure out how to field a football team this week. I just read an article about Canterbury in St. Pete cancelling a game due to lack of participation- Lake Mary Prep in Orlando shutting down their football program due to lack of numbers. Heck, even my St. Pete Catholic Barons have gone multiple seasons without a JV team so we could field a roster of 24.

I dont' think all Private Schools are created or funded the same nor do I think every Public school is created the same. But, I also understand and respect your point that these athletes just show up at these schools in droves.
 
What are we teaching (kids)?
Answer: At the vast majority of the most successful HS programs were teaching kids that it's not important HOW you win as long as you win.

And when stories of coaches ordering players to intentionally knock out game officials, video of players hitting an unprotected opponent in the face with a helmet or accounts of star players feeling entitled to commit crime (sometimes violent crime) hit the media, ask yourself this: How many gainfully-employed, law-abiding, red-blooded Americans are going to shake their heads and say to themselves, "This is absurd. No way do I want my son (or grandson) to be involved with this."

It would be easy to forgive a casual observer who saw all of the above and mistakenly decided that football was basically a game for "heathens". And most Americans are exactly that ... casual observers. Especially at the high school level.

What's the solution if we want to stem the tide and make good sportsmanship synonymous with high school football, we have to wrest control from those who's only interest is their team's ranking in (insert name of index).
 
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What I don't agree with is those saying this happens at every private school. For every American Heritage or JaxTCA or CCC..there's 3-4 private schools trying to figure out how to field a football team this week.
Totally agree, to label all private schools as cheaters is ridiculous.

But before "school choice" became a viable loophole to give HS-level power brokers the ability to emulate Nevin Shapiro at a public high school, people who wanted to cheat had no other choice than to involve themselves with a private program. Thus, some people unfairly equate "private school program" with "cheating".

If the trend to permit concentration of talent continues, Nu'Trelle predicts that you'll see more and more HS's (both public and private) throw in the towel, drop their football program and move on. This will be a shame in Nu'Trelle's estimation, because even if a kid is 5'9, 160 and is too slow to be anything other than a lineman, he still deserves a chance to compete as a high school student.
 
If the trend to permit concentration of talent continues, Nu'Trelle predicts that you'll see more and more HS's (both public and private) throw in the towel, drop their football program and move on. This will be a shame in Nu'Trelle's estimation, because even if a kid is 5'9, 160 and is too slow to be anything other than a lineman, he still deserves a chance to compete as a high school student.

Nu'Trelle..Look at Wildwood...They always had a great program, many playoff apperances...Didnt have a team this year. I am sure there are many factors that led to the decision, but this year Wildwood. What small town team and school and tradition is gonna follow next? Yeah think about a small town, high school football every Friday night a tradition for generations, now gone....
 
But things have changed dramatically in Wildwood when it comes to high school football and Friday nights. The Wildcats have struggled to be competitive lately and community support has dwindled along with the fortunes of the team.

Enrollment at the school has been dropping steadily, falling from 539 students in 2002 to 384 in 2014. That has been particularly acute for the football team, which this year was faced with fielding a team featuring only four upperclassmen and only two with experience playing football.

“Twenty years ago we had these good old country boys and working and athletics were their two outlets,” Wolf said. “Now it’s a whole new era and the kids have their video games and they go home, stay in their rooms and play them.

“There’s so much more to do nowadays. People find things to do other than go to a football game on a Friday night.”

In Wildwood, people will need to find something other than football on Friday nights this fall. The school’s athletic officials recently decided that the Wildcats would not field a varsity team this year, hoping to build the program back up from the junior varsity level.

The plan calls for adding a few varsity games next season with the hope of playing a full varsity schedule in 2017.

The move has been met with a spirited debate on Facebook among the Wildcats’ fans, leaving no doubt that there will be a big hole for many this season.

“Some say it’s deserved because we’ve had some bad losing seasons,” said Wildwood rising senior Jenna Woods. “It’s definitely a shame and it does take away from your senior year not to have a football team.”

For many fans the reasons for disbanding the varsity team make perfect sense, even if they don’t like it. Wildwood struggled to be competitive in most of its games last season while mostly enduring one humiliating defeat after another.

The downward slide has led several budding football players to move to other schools, particularly to South Sumter and The Villages.
 
...
If the trend to permit concentration of talent continues, Nu'Trelle predicts that you'll see more and more HS's (both public and private) throw in the towel, drop their football program and move on. This will be a shame in Nu'Trelle's estimation, because even if a kid is 5'9, 160 and is too slow to be anything other than a lineman, he still deserves a chance to compete as a high school student.

This great game, this right of passage, this opportunity to impose physical will without breaking of law or intent of death, has changed. Changed to the point that shrinking numbers of us have the opportunity to play it in terms of sport or sportsmanship. I am thankful for the opportunity to have done so and only wish I had not wasted valuable reps in pads due to lack of foresight.
I see the trend moving to private club teams, which will assume the liability and stewardship of our great game, in order to provide participants to the next level of competition.
 
307mac with an attempted Wildwood thread-Jack...I can appreciate that...

Redfishron...you mean like baseball? The day the Perfect Game decides to run baseball showcase tournaments in the spring, high school baseball will cease to exist. Do you really think football could one day face that same fate?
 
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Nope Nam, I'm not trying to hijack anything, just giving a little info to JC-5 about what happened to Wildwood.
 
Neut,

I agree completely. We are teaching the kids that it doesn't matter how you win as long as you get that W. I don't blame the kids, its on these coaches and administrations that allow this to happen. If that's how they truly wish to operate and their goal is to truly allow kids to face the best competition not only in games but in practice, let them play in their own division, Heck even allow IMG to play for a title in that division.
 
This great game, this right of passage, this opportunity to impose physical will without breaking of law or intent of death, has changed. Changed to the point that shrinking numbers of us have the opportunity to play it in terms of sport or sportsmanship.
Think redfishron is wrong? Consider this article published today on the CBS News website (Nu'Trelle's comment will follow):

New Jersey quarterback Evan Murray is the third high school football player in the U.S. to die this season. Alarm over football-related injuries is growing in school districts across the country, and many are debating whether to keep their football teams.

The Maplewood Richmond Heights High School in Missouri is one of a growing number of high schools to scrap their football teams, saying the sport just isn't safe.

The Maplewood Blue Devils (went 12-1 and) made it all the way to the Missouri state (quarterfinals) in (2007). School board president Nelson Mitten said the school had a proud football tradition.

"I've spent many a time, hours with alumni, dating back to the 1960s, talking about the tremendous football teams they've had going back 'til then," Mitten said.

But after last season, the high school football program has been canceled.

"One of our students suffered a head injury that put him out the rest of the season, and then we had at least one broken ankle," Mitten said.

He said the team had so many players hurt last fall, they had to forfeit a game. Only 14 active players were on the roster at season's end, down from 40 just seven years ago.

"The board did an assessment of interest in the program, found that there were probably insufficient students to maintain a team, and decided to cancel the team for this year," Mitten said.

Maplewood isn't alone. Schools in Maine and New Jersey have canceled or cut short their seasons this year due to injuries or low student interest. The total number of high school students playing football across America has dropped by more than 25,000 over the past five years.

"Youth participation is declining, high school participation is declining. This trend is going to continue," Time magazine senior writer Sean Gregory said.


Comment from Nu'Trelle: In 2015 over a million kids are still playing HS fooball, but the fact that participation has declined by 2-3 percent over the past 5 years should provide astute observers some sort of clue as to what's on the horizon.

Will injuries - even fatal injuries - bring an end to HS football? Nu'Trelle says it's unlikely. Kids with enough motivation will be able to talk their parents into letting them play, particularly if their dad played.

So how could our great game die?

The simple answer is lack of interest. It explains what happened this season at Maplewood Richmond Heights in a suburb of St. Louis, MO and also explains what happened at Wildwood in Central FL. Neither school could find enough kids to field a team, so both had no choice but to drop football. Other schools in the US are following suit.

Nu'Trelle has been saying on here for years that eliminating competition on a local (district) level will ultimately cause kids at the "have not" schools to lose interest and that is the thing that will eventually be the death knell for HS football.

And when (not if, but when) it's over we can blame the type of self-centered, "win-at-any-cost" imbeciles who couldn't see the forest for the trees. Their mission in life was to assemble as many star players as humanly possible on one team. Little did most fans know that this would be a bigger threat to the game than serious injury or death.

If left unbridled by those assigned to govern competition, these are the people who have the power to unwittingly turn off the lights. Once these idiots cause an insurmountable number of kids to lose interest, it's game, set and match.

And when everything is over, if we put any one of these "types" on trial, he'd likely break down in tears and plead, "All I wanted to do was put together something we could be proud of."

If there's any justice left in the World, a jury of his peers can impose sentence by saying, "Sir, you wanted to win by destroying the thing that kept the game of HS football alive and well for generations. You wanted to eliminate competition."
 
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Could not agree more Neutral. Give coaches lifetime bans from FHSAA if they cheat. Responsible coaches are the only ones who can stop this.
 
It's the one bad one who ruins it for the thirty good ones, Dontthrow...same reason why the state has given authority to the freakin' athletic trainers over the coaches...because some coaches can't be trusted to do what is right.
 
Could not agree more Neutral. Give coaches lifetime bans from FHSAA if they cheat. Responsible coaches are the only ones who can stop this.
Unfortunately at this point, Nu'Trelle is afraid the horse is out of the barn. Clearly, the FHSAA no longer governs the game. Ironically, the people who run the game are those with the greatest desire to win. It's a classic Catch-22 situation.

The inmates are now running the asylum ... and, as a bonus, they're getting national TV and newspaper exposure to boot.
 
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Sure,

Great young talent. Qb #13 could be a good one. Defensively they missed some assignments and didn't maintain gap control. That added with an explosive back from fort meade can allow for some big plays as we saw Friday night. Offensively they are headed in the right direction. New bartow coach runs multiple sets with some smoke and mirrors. They lack that explosive playmaker go to guy on offense which will hurt them until someone steps up. I honestly seem them going winless in the district, but that's a hell of a district they are in. Next years version of Bartow has chance to compete when some of the young talent matures.
 
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