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FHSAA considering changing the postseason format...

4A 8 FAN

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2001
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Tampa, FL
BY GEORGE RICHARDS
grichards@miamiherald.com

High school football in Florida, at least when it comes to the postseason, may be changing soon.

The Florida High School Activities Association, the governing body for prep football in the state, is proposing changes to decide which teams advance into the postseason.

As it stands now and will for the coming season, individual schools are placed into districts in one of eight classifications. Each district champion and second place team move on to the regional playoffs.

Under the FHSAA’s new proposal, district play will be eliminated and teams will be free to schedule any 10 games it desires.

The catch is, teams will be given points based on their strength of schedule. The top eight teams in each region throughout the eight classifications will be seeded based on the amount of points they have accrued and averaged based on a minimum eight game schedule.

The better teams one plays, the more points one acquires. The current proposal awards 50 points for a victory over a team with eight victories or more or 35 points for losing to a team with at least eight wins.

Playing a team with fewer victories earns fewer points. Bonus points will be awarded for playing up in classification.

At the end of the 11-week season – teams would schedule a maximum of 10 games with one week off – the points would be calculated and the playoff teams and regional seedings announced, the FHSAA hopes, in a made-for-TV special broadcast statewide.

“We think this would be very exciting,” FHSAA football administrator Frank Beasley said. “We would make every week count. There would be no more having districts wrapped up by the seventh or eighth week.”

The FHSAA is currently searching out opinions from coaches and athletic directors throughout the state and hope to present it to its board of directors in June before going before its athletic directors’ advisory board later in the fall.

The new format – which the FHSAA admits needs tweaking – could be approved for 2017 as soon as this football season.

“We’ve had a lot of positive feedback in regards to some of the changes, but as I’ve shared with everyone, this is still in its infant stages,’’ Frank Beasley said.

“The particulars haven’t been finalized. There’s a lot more vetting to do, more input to get from our board of director and AD advisory board. I’ve heard a lot of positives and one of the biggest is fitting your schedule to what fits your program best.”

Coaches and administrators throughout South Florida have their concerns with the proposal although all seem to be interested in seeing the final result.

Although big schools in Miami-Dade and Broward counties may not be affected much as their scheduling would mostly be taken care of either by the Greater Miami Athletic Conference or the Broward County Athletic Association, smaller, private schools worry about building a 10-game schedule without the benefit of having built-in district games.

Chaminade-Madonna coach Jason Milgrom says under the current proposal, schools from larger classifications wouldn’t have much incentive to play his Class 3A team because it wouldn’t offer them bonus points for doing so.

“I like how some teams which didn’t get in under our current format would get in under this new one,’’ Milgrom said. “That’s a definite plus. There are powerhouse districts and weaker ones, so some teams get left out. But for us, as a 3A school, we can play with a lot of 8A schools.

“What does it matter if you’re playing up [in class] or down? I think that needs to be tweaked. I’m pretty sure, in 3A, there are five or six teams who can play with anyone in the state.’’

Cheryl Golden, the outgoing director of the GMAC, says the same problem would exist for Dade powerhouse Booker T. Washington. Although the Tornadoes have won four consecutive state championships, as a 4A school, they would get bonus points for playing a higher-classification team yet, say a Class 8A team, wouldn’t receive any points for scheduling the Tornadoes.

WE THINK THIS WOULD BE VERY EXCITING. WE WOULD MAKE EVERY WEEK COUNT. THERE WOULD BE NO MORE HAVING DISTRICTS WRAPPED UP BY THE SEVENTH OR EIGHTH WEEK.
Frank Beasley, FHSAA football administrator

Golden contends teams should get extra points to give them incentive to play teams such as Booker T. and Chaminade.

“One negative I see is some schools will never play outside of their neighborhood,’’ Golden said. “Other schools will have to play all over the place just to get games.”

The FHSAA realizes changes will be made to its proposal before it would go into effect. The underlying reason for change, Beasley said, is to ensure the top teams in Florida make it to the playoffs. Under the current setup, that may not be the case as not all districts have the same amount of schools competing for the same number of playoff berths.

Class 7A brought an example of that last year.

In 14-7A, just three teams – state power St. Thomas Aquinas, Blanche Ely and Fort Lauderdale -- were in the running for two spots.

Ely, for instance, could have made the playoffs by going 1-9 as long as its one win was over Fort Lauderdale (3-6). The Tigers did indeed beat the Flying L’s and roared into the postseason sporting a 2-8 record.

Other local districts in the very same classificiation had much more competition.

District 15-7A featured six teams (McArthur went 7-3 but finished third and didn’t make it) while Miami-Dade’s 16-7A had nine teams gunning for two spots.

Ronald Reagan and Miami Springs, despite having winning records, weren’t playoff teams because Miami Sunset won the district with Mater taking the runner-up position.

Under the new format, all of those teams would be lumped together with the top eight teams in the region – regardless of previous district assignment – having a chance at the playoffs.

“We’re definitely open minded if this is in the best interest of all the schools affiliated with the FHSAA,” said Aquinas coach Roger Harriott, whose team won the Class 7A state title in his first year at the helm.

“This is a new structure that definitely needs some modifying. We want to make sure all the kids have the best possible opportunities to compete. For the most part, humans are creatures of habit and all we’ve known is districts. This is a new option. It has pros and cons and I’m a little reluctant to support it until things are revised and is more thought out because it’s going to affect schools long-term.”

How teams make the playoffs will require some mathematics. It appears the state will remain at eight classificiations due to all the defections of private schools to independent conferences.

Within those eight classificiations will be four regions.

District play would be eliminated and tougher scheduling would be rewarded through a point system.

For example, if a team -- lets say McArthur -- plays a team, say South Broward, which ended its season 8-2. If McArthur won that game, it would get 50 points. It would receive 35 points for losing, regardless of the final score.

If McArthur beat a team that finished 3-7, it would be credited just 35 points for that victory. If the Mustangs lost to a 3-7 team, it would only receive 20 points.

Teams will also receive bonus points for playing above their classification. So, if a Class 3A team plays a team from 6A, it would receive three extra points regardless of the outcome. There is no bonus nor penalty for playing a school from a lower classification.

At the end of the 11-week season, each team's point total would be calculated and the regional playoffs would be seeded from first to eighth within each region within each classification.

The team in each region with the most points would be the top seed and play host to regional playoff games throughout regional play.

“We’ve received some great ideas and we’re going to continue to poke and prod at this,” Beasley said.

“We’re trying to make this as foolproof as we can. Not everything is perfect. We know that. Until we go out there and do this, you don’t know what the pitfalls will be.’’
 
I ain't so sure if I like this or not. The system rewards you for making a tough schedule. How about if no one wants to play you because your team has a losing record? How are the "bad" teams supposed to schedule their 10 games? The good teams won't want to schedule them - right?
 
FWIW, my initial response is BS. Ratings and strength of schedule are subjective. In other words "Opinions." No two of us think exactly the same. What happens when the team you beat 50-0 in game one is now 7-2 with one game remaining? They win and the 50 points puts you in the top 8 ( playoffs ). They lose you now get 35 points, finish #9 in region and out of the playoffs. BS. Your 8A school signs a home and home with 4A Booker T Washington. Ice Harris goes to the NFL and the Tornado's tank. Might that cost you a playoff position ? Who knows with 15 pts here and 15 pts there. It's out of your hands. There are too many variable for this thing to work in a fair way as it is being proposed. Even with tweaks, somebody's team is going to get robbed.
 
If you are top two in your district then you are in, if you are 3rd....well, not everyone should get a trophy. Isn't that one of the main problems with society nowdays? Now, I agree the districts/classes should be more proportional. There should not be any 3 team districts or 9 team districts.

Once again, this doesn't have anything to do with what should be the primary focus of the FHSAA and at the same time is what their real purpose is about. If you read closely you saw the
FHSAA hopes, in a made-for-TV special broadcast statewide.
Nomsayin' ??
 
If you are top two in your district then you are in, if you are 3rd....well, not everyone should get a trophy. Isn't that one of the main problems with society nowdays? Now, I agree the districts/classes should be more proportional. There should not be any 3 team districts or 9 team districts.

Once again, this doesn't have anything to do with what should be the primary focus of the FHSAA and at the same time is what their real purpose is about. If you read closely you saw the Nomsayin' ??

I don't have a dog in this fight...

I do you what you're saying though...
 
This helps explain it..you win you will get in, regardless of who you play. open mind here people, This levels the playing field

http://www.fiaaa.org/sites/default/files/fhsaa_football_possible_future_structure.ppsx


This system was created with two main goals in mind:

  1. Allow programs to control their own schedules
  2. Create a seeding system for the playoffs which leads to more excitement from a selection and opponent standpoint.

The word “district” would not exist any longer and you would be allowed to schedule whatever ten games that fit your program. Each team would be placed in 1 of 4 regions throughout the state based on geography and that is where the playoffs would be seeded first (within your region). Each of the 4 region champions would compete in the semifinals and then the two semi-final winners would compete in the finals.

If you beat ten 0-10 teams you will more than likely get in, but will be a higher seed.
 
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I'm not so sure about the level playing field...

The new transfer rule and now this...

Only the best programs will benefit in my opinion...
 
I foresee many unintended consequences. What happens when a team goes 10-0 and doesn't make it or 9-1, etc.? Current system may not be perfect but it is clearly defined (top two in).
 
FHSAA is dumb as a box of rocks and theses people who come up with these rules are to. The current format has been the best and they need to leave it alone.
 
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I say we have a meeting in Gadsden Co., w wings, meatballs, smokies, etc and all voice our opinions and dont forget the cheese and wine! Always a lot of wine with things of this such!
 
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Ok huntayo I'll play, and remember I'm a lefty and change is good. Mainland beats 5-0 St Thomas Aquinas 30-0 :) and knocks their QB out for the season. They finish 5-5. Instead of 50pts the Bucs get 40. The top dozen or so teams in each region will agonize over the weekly box scores of their in season opponents even when they took care of business in head to head match- ups. Let's keep the human element out of the playoffs.
 
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I posted this on another forum

But when does a schedule become a cupcake schedule... For example, Buchholz (Gainesville) went 4-6 in 2014 in 2015 they went 10-2 and the schedules were very similar in terms of teams. Does this mean that Buchholz scheduled cupcakes or did they get better? If you scheduled them before the season, did you think they were a 9-1 type regular season team? If you schedule First Coast (Jacksonville) did you really think they were going to be that bad?

I find it funny that they used Region 1, Class 7A which I used to prove their last system was idiotic. They still have the wrong math for Columbia High School (which probably means they have the wrong math for other schools as well).

As I look at the power point, I don't see how this solves the problem...
These are the "negatives" of the current system
  • Some are in small districts some are in large districts (This is FHSAA's fault not the playoff system's fault, they chose to expand to 8 classifications, shrink the classifications, problem is solved).
  • The best teams don’t always get in (This is always true, there is always a team that feels they deserved to get in and didn't, for the simulation they ran 7 of the 8 teams that made the playoff were playoff teams).
  • Travel/Competition/Safety (These issues could be solved by new districting)
  • Old and Outdated (This is an opinion and nothing about it seems outdated unless you are just looking to switch)
  • Does not take in account week 11 outcome (Actually lots of weeks don't count under the current system, not just week 11).
  • Very little excitement leading into playoffs (Another Opinion. Ask Lincoln if they were excited after the Shootout they won, and who says week 11 will have any more excitement. Win or Lose your team could be in, additionally, having to sit and pray that your former opponents' opponents win so you can get extra points doesn't seem like a situation where the winner is being determined on the field).
  • Second round rematches (ummm... you could have 1st/2nd/3rd round rematches under this "new" system. Rematches Happen.)
  • Over 50% of the playoff games in 2015 had a 21 point differential. (That speaks to numerous issues including too many classifications, a renewed emphasis on offense. I also take issue that this system fixes this. 7 out 8 teams in the sample classification made the playoffs under the old system. Only 2 of the games in Region 1 were over 21 points, both of them were CHS vs Lincoln, CHS vs Bartram Trail (both games that could have happened under the new system anyway. So if you are complaining about big victories. This doesn't solve it.)
  • 40% of teams are in a 3 or 4 team district (FHSAA's fault for 8 classifications, including 4 really small classifications. Second, faulty data. 7 out of 40 teams in 1A play in 3 or 4 team districts, but there aren't more teams that they could add. 24/31 in 2A, but again most of the schools that could be used in 2A are independents. 29/29 in 3A, 8 out 40 in 4A, 13 out 82 in 5A, 24/79 in 6A, 17/86 in 7A, 8/89 in 8A. Unless I miscounted that comes to 130/476 or 27% not 40%. Boo for bad math)
  • Independent number is growing due to forced district play (Agreed that this is a problem, but this doesn't really solve the problem. These same teams can have the same schedules they have now as Independents or as Class 2A. The only difference is that they have to play Class 2A powerhouses in the playoffs, which they want to avoid to begin with).
 
These are the list of the positives about the new schedule from the powerpoint...
  • Schools control their own schedule (Agreed)
  • Schools can do what best fits their athletes (Agreed)
  • No more complaining about district placement (Ummm... you still will hear complaints about every other sport, and this sounds like a situation where you guys are just forced to work harder)
  • School districts or areas can create their own conferences (They can do that know with out of district games)
  • Schools and/or Districts can control Travel (This is just a repeat of Point #1)
  • Creates excitement that is now missing (This is an opinion)
  • Counts week 11 (It counts now, it just doens't count for playoff purposes, and for the most part neither does week 1 or 2 for most schools. While it is a true argument, it is a stupid argument).
  • The best teams will get in (No they won't because people will figure out how to game the system like they always do. BTW Region 1, Class 7A 7 out the 8 teams in the new simulation were already playoff teams, so it's not like good teams were held out).
  • Week 11 press conference announcing matchups (Really?!?!?! Somebody will open a newspaper or go to a website to see it. What will actually happen is that most teams will move their bye to Week 11 so they know the end results).
  • The seeding will create a more exciting playoff system (Opinion, but seeding would be better overall, but not much. Look to Region 4, Class 7A. Dwyer played STA in Round 2. If they had been seeded #1 and #2, it would be Round 3. Not much of a difference.)
  • Creates more self-policing (Not even sure what this means, but if it is regards to scheduling you already said that)
  • Tough schedules will be rewarded (How are they punished now? If you set-up a Murder's Row of Plant, Armwood, Apopka, Bolles, Trinity Christian, STA, and IMG as your schedule, are you punished?)
 
You got it kicked gator-man. So what if anything needs to change besides less classes and FHSAA to "work harder"?
 
My suggestion is a system of promotion and relegation that would combine school size with playoff success/failure.

For every round of playoffs for the last two years, you receive an additional 75 students counted to your population. So a school like Miami Central would receive 375 for 2015 and 375 for 2014 or an additional 750. Additionally, you lose 50 students for every consecutive year that you aren't in the playoffs.

So a school like Miami Central would see their population would rise from 1817 to 2567.
Meanwhile, a school like 7A Forest Hills would see their population decrease from 2316 to 1366 due to the fact that they haven't been in the playoffs for 19 straight years.

Classification 1A would not have this happen to them. Classification 2A would only have 20% of the population increase. Classification 3A would be affected by 40% and 4A would be affected by 50%.
So Booker T Washington which has played in 4 rounds in 2014 and 2015, would normally have 600 population added to them, but since they are 4A they only get 300 added to them.

While a school like Trinity Christian (Jacksonville) could compete with many of the larger schools, putting them in 8A seems silly when they only have 468 students, but moving them up to 4A would be a better challenge for them.
 
Careful HardeeWildCat it looks like you are surrounded by The Grammar Guard and the Punctuation Police.

Larry,
It look like you surrounded by people don't GAF what you have to say.

When you start off calling people dumbasses, you best not write like one.
 
FWIW, my initial response is BS. Ratings and strength of schedule are subjective. In other words "Opinions." No two of us think exactly the same. What happens when the team you beat 50-0 in game one is now 7-2 with one game remaining? They win and the 50 points puts you in the top 8 ( playoffs ). They lose you now get 35 points, finish #9 in region and out of the playoffs. BS. Your 8A school signs a home and home with 4A Booker T Washington. Ice Harris goes to the NFL and the Tornado's tank. Might that cost you a playoff position ? Who knows with 15 pts here and 15 pts there. It's out of your hands. There are too many variable for this thing to work in a fair way as it is being proposed. Even with tweaks, somebody's team is going to get robbed.
UHHHH..... actually strength of schedule is pretty straightforward and usually produce by a math algorithm. i.e., LAZ Index. I would jsut like to know if that is actually what we would use.

i was in favor of super districts (eliminated 3 team districts, took more from stronger conference). BUT this could get there as well. I need to know.

IF forming conferences within regions will there be any incentive post season-wise by FHSAA?
What are the factors in SOS?

This would fit where state is going with transfer, what I will say is this, don't complain about travel, parents don't complain about paying money to help for travel, food, expenses etc. build it in your program.

Let the FHSAA fight the County public school system because there will be schools shutting down football programs OR if you are a school "competing" for playoffs, don't wine when the "Fightin' Armidillos" in your county get new equipment, uniforms, paid for by the county AND YOU GET NOTHING FROM THE COUNTY . . . you did get something from them . . . . You got their running back, you got first pick in their pop warner program, you got their gate, you got any hopes of Friday Lights for them . . . .

IF you are throwing the security blanket out the window then fine, SHUT UP AND COMPETE, but don't turn around and cry "Its' not Fair!"

Just sayin!
 
Can you smell what the FHSAA is cooking? Get ready for all playoff games to be held at one of two sights: South: IMG's complex. North; Disney.
 
Can you smell what the FHSAA is cooking? Get ready for all playoff games to be held at one of two sights: South: IMG's complex. North; Disney.
They will have to build a real stadium at Disney if they are doing that, one better than that PGA/horsetrack observation seating they got up there now.
 
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